In an interview with German news magazine Der Spiegel, and on the 70th anniversary of the
USA dropping atomic bombs on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, former
Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachov discusses morals and politics in the nuclear
age, the crisis in Russian-American relations and his fear that an atomic
weapon will someday be used.
Interview Conducted by Joachim Mohr and Matthias Schepp:
SPIEGEL: Mikhail Sergeyevich, during your inaugural
speech as general secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in March
1985, you warned of nuclear war and called for the "complete destruction of
nuclear weapons and a permanent ban on them." Did you mean that seriously?
Gorbachev: The discussion about disarmament had
already been going on for too long -- far too long. I wanted to finally see
words followed by action because the arms race was not only continuing, it was
growing ever more dangerous in terms of
the number of weapons and their destructive capacity. There were tens of
thousands of nuclear warheads on different delivery systems like aircraft,
missiles and submarines.
SPIEGEL: Did you feel the Soviet Union was under
threat during the 1980s by the nuclear weapons of NATO member states?
Gorbachev: The situation was that nuclear missiles
were being stationed closer and closer to our adversary's borders. They were
getting increasingly precise and they were also being aimed at decision-making
centers. There were very concrete plans for the use of these weapons. Nuclear
war had become conceivable. And even a technical error could have caused it to
happen. At the same time, disarmament talks were not getting anywhere. In
Geneva, diplomats pored over mountains of paper, drank wine, and even harder
stuff, by the liter. And it was all for nothing.
SPIEGEL: At a meeting of the Warsaw Pact nations in
1986, you declared that the military doctrine of the Soviet Union was no longer
to plan for the coming war, but rather to seek to prevent military
confrontation with the West. What was the reason behind the shift in strategy?
Gorbachev: It was clear to me that relations with
America and the West would be a lasting dead end without atomic disarmament,
with mutual distrust and growing hostility. That is why nuclear disarmament was
the highest priority for Soviet foreign policy.
SPIEGEL: Did you not also push disarmament forward
because of the financial and economic troubles facing the Soviet Union in the
1980s?
Gorbachev: Of course we perceived just how great a
burden the arms race was on our economy. That did indeed play a role. It was
clear to us that atomic confrontation threatened not only our people but also
all of humanity. We knew only too well the weapons being discussed, their
destructive force and the consequences. The nuclear catastrophe at Chernobyl
provided us with a rather precise idea of what the consequences of a nuclear
war would be. Decisive for us were thus political and ethical considerations,
not economic ones.
SPIEGEL: What was your experience with US President
Ronald Reagan, who many saw as a driving force in the Cold War?
Gorbachev: Reagan acted out of honest conviction and
genuinely rejected nuclear weapons. Already during my first meeting with him in
November of 1985, we were able to make the most important determination:
"Nuclear war cannot be won and must never be fought." This sentence
combined morals and politics -- two things many consider to be irreconcilable.
Unfortunately, the US has since forgotten the second important point in our
joint statement -- according to which neither America nor we will seek to
achieve military superiority.
SPIEGEL: Are you disappointed in the Americans?
Gorbachev: So many decades pass, but unfortunately
some things do not change. Already back in the 1950s, President Dwight D.
Eisenhower stated the problem by its name. The power of the military-industrial
complex continued to be enormous under Reagan and his successor George Bush.
Former US Secretary of State George Shultz told me a few years ago that only a
conservative president like Reagan could have been in a position to get the
Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty through the Senate. Let's not forget
that the "Zero Option" that Reagan himself proposed (eds. note:
the proposal to remove all Soviet and American intermediate-range nuclear
missles from Europe) had many opponents in the West. They considered it to
be a propaganda stunt and they wanted to thwart Reagan's policies. After the
Reykjavik summit in 1986 (eds. note: the subject of the summit between
Reagan and Gorbachev was nuclear disarmament), Margaret Thatcher declared:
We won't be able to handle a second Reykjavik.
SPIEGEL: Did you really believe at the time that you
could achieve a world free of nuclear weapons?
Gorbachev: We not only proclaimed a nuclear weapons
free world as a major goal -- we also named concrete interim goals. In
addition, we aspired to the destruction of chemical weapons and are now close
to achieving that goal. Limiting conventional weapons was also on our agenda.
That was all inextricably linked to a normalisation of our relations. We wanted
to move from confrontation to cooperation. We achieved a lot, which shows that
my approach was completely realistic.
SPIEGEL: Many accused you of using your demand as a
tactic to present the Soviet Union as a peace-loving country.
Gorbachev: No, there was no propaganda at play and it
was not tactical. It was important to get away from the nuclear abyss our
countries were marching toward when they stationed hundreds of
intermediate-range nuclear missiles in Europe.
SPIEGEL: Why were the negotiations over
intercontinental ballistic missiles so much tougher than those over intermediate-range
missiles?
Gorbachev: In Reykjavik, Iceland, in October 1986,
Reagan and I not only established the framework for eliminating
intermediate-range missiles, but also for halving the number of
intercontinental missiles. But Reagan was up against strong resistance from the
hawks in the US administration. This continued under Bush, so, in the end, we
only finally signed the treaty in summer 1991. With the strategic long-range
weapons there were also technical questions. And then we also had the problem
with the missile defence.
SPIEGEL: You were unable to convince Reagan to
abandon his SDI project, which aimed to create a defensive shield against
nuclear intercontinental ballistic missiles. Did that upset you?
Gorbachev: Reagan wanted it no matter what. That's
why in Reykjavik we weren't able to turn our agreements on intercontinental
missiles and intermediate-range missiles into treaties. In order to break the
impasse, we offered the Americans concessions and uncoupled the negotiating
package. We agreed on a separate treaty addressing the intermediate-range
missiles. Reagan and I signed it in Washington in December 1987.
SPIEGEL: The stationing of American
intermediate-range missiles led to mass demonstrations by the peace movement in
Germany …
Gorbachev: … and Helmut Kohl then played a very
positive role in the establishment of the treaty with the elimination of the
Pershing 1A missiles.
SPIEGEL: The nuclear warhead belonged to the
Americans, but the missiles were German. Kohl declared that the missiles could
be destroyed if the US and Russia came to an agreement on the destruction of
the intermediate-range missiles.
Gorbachev: If Kohl had not dispensed with them, we
would not have signed.
SPIEGEL: Was there actually resistance to your
disarmament policies within the Soviet ruling elite?
Gorbachev: Every member of the leadership at the time
understood the importance of disarmament. All the leading politicians had
experience and a sober view of things. Just think about Foreign Minister Andrei
Gromkyo …
SPIEGEL: … who had the nickname "Mr. Nyet"
in the West because of his hardline negotiating tactics …
Gorbachev: … but like all the others, he understood
how dangerous the arms race was. At the top, we were united at the time about
ending it.
SPIEGEL: How did disarmament treaties materialise
under your leadership?
Gorbachev: The Soviet Union had a strict and clear
system for the preparation of politburo decisions. They happened through the
so-called Five, a committee made up of representatives from relevant agencies
and experts. We took into consideration the positions of our negotiating
partners without jeopardising the Soviet Union's state security. The politburo
weighed proposals and then issued directives to our negotiation delegations and
also to me, the general secretary and later president, for summit meetings.
That happened prior to Reykjavik in 1986, Washington in 1987 and other
meetings. The politburo, in turn, fell back on proposals from experts, which it
then reviewed and discussed.
SPIEGEL: Can the goal of a nuclear free world still
be achieved today?
Gorbachev: It is the correct goal in any case.
Nuclear weapons are unacceptable. The fact that they can wipe out the entirety
of civilization makes them particularly inhumane. Weapons like this have never
existed before in history and they cannot be allowed to exist. If we do not get
rid of them, sooner or later they will be used.
SPIEGEL: In recent years, a number of new nuclear
powers have emerged.
Gorbachev: That's why we should not forget that the
elimination of nuclear weapons is the obligation of every country that signed
the Non-Proliferation Treaty. Though America and Russia have by far the largest
arsenals at their disposal.
SPIEGEL: What do you think of the oft-cited theory
that mutually assured destruction prevents nuclear wars?
Gorbachev: There's a dangerous logic in that. Here's
another question: If five or 10 countries are allowed to have nuclear weapons,
then why can't 20 or 30? Today, a few dozen countries have the technical
prerequisites to build nuclear weapons. The alternative is clear: Either we
move toward a nuclear-free world or we have to accept that nuclear weapons will
continue to spread, step by step, across the globe. And can we really imagine a
world without nuclear weapons if a single country amasses so many conventional
weapons that its military budget nearly tops that of all other countries
combined? This country would enjoy total military supremacy if nuclear weapons
were abolished.
SPIEGEL: You're talking about the US?
Gorbachev: You said it. It is an insurmountable
obstacle on the road to a nuclear-free world. That's why we have to put
demilitarisation back on the agenda of international politics. This includes a
reduction of military budgets, a moratorium on the development of new types of
weapons and a prohibition on militarizing space. Otherwise, talks toward a
nuclear-free world will be little more than empty words. The world would then
become less safe, more unstable and unpredictable. Everyone will lose,
including those now seeking to dominate the world.
SPIEGEL: Is there a risk of war between Russia and
the West over the crisis in Ukraine?
Gorbachev: We have reached a crossroads in relations
between America and Russia. Many are already talking about a new Cold War.
Talks between both powers over important global problems have practically been
put on ice. That includes the question of nuclear disarmament. Trust, the very
capital we worked so hard to build, has been destroyed.
SPIEGEL: Do you believe there is a danger of nuclear
war?
Gorbachev: I'm very worried. The current state of
things is scary. The nuclear powers still have thousands of nuclear warheads.
Nuclear weapons are still stationed in Europe. The pace of reducing stockpiles
has slowed considerably. We are witnessing the beginning of a new arms race.
The militarization of space is a real danger. The danger of nuclear
proliferation is greater than ever before. The Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty
has not entered into force, primarily because the Americans did not ratify it.
This would have been extremely important.
SPIEGEL: Do you think Russia will once again begin to
use its nuclear capablities as a bargaining chip in international relations?
Gorbachev: We have to view everything in context.
Unfortunately, formulations have reappeared in the nuclear powers' military
doctrines that represent a relapse to the language that predated the
Soviet-American declaration of 1985. We need a new declaration, probably from
the United Nations Security Council, that reasserts nuclear war as inadmissible
-- it knows no winners.
SPIEGEL: Isn't a world without nuclear weapons just a
nice dream?
Gorbachev: No matter how difficult the situation is,
we must not fall into resignation or panic. In the mid-1980s, there was no
shortage of people who thought the train to atomic hell was unstoppable. But
then we achieved a lot in very short space of time. Thousands of nuclear
warheads were destroyed and several types of nuclear weapons, such as
intermediate-range missiles, were disposed of. We can be proud of that. We
accomplished all that together. It should be a lesson for today's leaders: for
Obama, Putin and Merkel.
SPIEGEL: Mr. Gorbachev, we thank you for this
interview.
About Mikhail Gorbachov
About Mikhail Gorbachov
Mikhail Gorbachov was born in 1931 in the rural
locality of Privolnoye in the northern Caucasus. He became a member of the
Soviet Communist Party at the age of 21 and began a career as a functionary.
From 1985 to 1991, he served as the general secretary of the Central Committee
of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, the most powerful man in the
country. With his policies of glasnost ("openness") and perestroika
("restructuring"), he initiated what became the end of the Soviet Union in
controversial circumstances, particularly since a majority of the Soviet people
had voted for Mr Gorbachov’s new Union Treaty and what actually happened was a
coup against him by hardliners which failed and what amounted to a counter-coup
by Boris Yelstin, the President of the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist
Republic; Yelstin then declared, without lawful authority, the abolition of the
Soviet Union and its Constitution and literally dumped the ex-Soviet republics
on the international scene without any consultation with the peoples living
there and leading to complete economic and political chaos in several of them.
The crisis in Ukraine today has its roots in Yeltsin’s reckless and
undemocratic behaviour.
Mr Gorbachov received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1990.
